The ‘moral equivalency’ argument says: “I condemn the terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians. By the same token, I condemn the Israeli attacks in Gaza, which are also killing civilians.” Counting civiliand deaths, Israel is supposed to lose the moral evaluation.
I can only wish I could be as articulate as Gil-White is. Gray's argument, a common one, is simple-minded, not informed, and self righteous, imo. Thank you, for the analysis on the debate. It continues to be unsettling to hear friends say their minds are made up without knowing the history or using critical thinking. We need strong minds like this right now as it seems like part of the psyop battle depends on whole groups of people being dumbed down and exploited to make some kind of social vote.
Great article, very direct and clear analysis on the issue of moral equivalence , which by its definition derives from the fantasy world created by the half of the woke movement.. the reality is much qruder and complicated for superficial assumptions especially coming from a room in some western country detached from the events they assume to cover.. indeed we can talk about how this contradicting facts help to promote some agenda.. so what Is that those woke movement suggest to bring upon our society?
There is a "General" Indoctrination by default to "Dislike" Jews Globally for decades, hundreds or more livelily, thousands of years. I was born in Iran ( in a Bahai Family ) & have been out of Iran since 1975 ( Christian since 2009 ) I remember even before the revolution in Iran ( which was still a muslim country but much better than now ) Christians & Jews ( though lived peacefully in Iran ) were considered "Unclean". I think Regardless of which country, there is an underlying low Res but "Consistent" brainwashing to dislike Jews. it Must be Biblical. It must be going back to the old testament. Any thoughts?
Yes, I have created a name for it: "Canaan's Revenge." People are under the impression that Anti-Semitism originated with the "The Jews Killed Christ" narrative (they didn't; Rome did.). But I assert that it predates this. That it goes back to the fact that Jews and Judaism and Israel/Israelites/Hebrews...the original people of Abraham, became the antidote to what I call "Hydraulic Paganism."
What's that?
Hydraulic Civilization results from the fact that you need a large number of conscripted laborers, called "Corvee" laborers, to dig waterworks and dams and irrigation in order to have agriculture, due to the fact that you have an arid climate but with a large body of water nearby that can be tapped into. Such as: The Nile, the Euphrates, the Mekong, etc. As opposed to "Rainfall Farming" like in northern Europe where rainfall is abundant enough year round to keep a small landholding productive without the need for large waterworks and state organization. Producing a culture of Individualism. This was discussed in Wittfogel's book "Oriental Despotism." Not so in the arid, "hydraulic climate." But what Hydraulic Agriculture also results in is in the need for an elaborate astrological and astronomical prediction mechanism to determine when the Nile and Euphrates, etc would swell and flood, and when droughts would occur. Thus arises predictions and astrology. With this comes a priesthood who hoards this knowledge, and gets corrupted in the process. It also results in the amalgamation of power into the hands of a few individuals, like a Pharaoh, who employ large numbers of slaves and workers to build monuments to said Pharaoh. With these Pagan cults accumulating power in the civilization, and Polytheism, the worship of multiple gods and goddesses also allows for Kings to become Gods. Hence, the Pharaoh, Caesar, etc was often worshiped as a God. Also in Babylon too. And Phoenicians and Canaanites. These societies become oppressive, arbitrary, and corrupt.
Enter Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrews. In their system, there can only be one God only, and this god an abstract, unseeable god who is in all and through all. Thus, no King or no human can also be God, because "thou shall have no gods before me." This then results in greater equality and more objective standards, because now, no Human is better than any other Human. Jews became the first Monotheistic State, organized around a Republican ideal of protecting the sanctity of an individual, who is endowed by their Creator as having equal rights. Thus, Jews became the first Liberals, setting the path toward Modernity and the standards and freedoms and comforts we enjoy today.
Well the old system of Hydraulic Paganism, which elevates God Kings and Pharoahs and elites above the general population, and venerates them, and worships them, simply for what they are born as rather than what they do ("by the color of their skin or dna rather than the content of their character.")...These old systems are NOT going to give way to some new system upending them, you see. It's all in the Old Testament, where Psalms and Proverbs decry the pride and arrogance and oppression of the Pagan nations. Babies can be taken at will, arbitrarily, and dashed to the rocks and burned in sacrifice to Baal and Molech.
Jews become a threat to an old order: the order of Hydraulic Paganism, King-worship. What Ayn Rand called "Monument Builders" --people who employ slaves to build monuments to unearned glory. Jews, with their Objective Standard of Law, One-Godship, and jurisprudence, became a threat to this system. In fact, they upended it in the Levant in the time of David.
These Canaanite/Phoenicians, however, they were also merchants and known for sea traveling, and went far and wide, giving Greece its alphabet and some of its gods. As well as seeding Rome, as well as many societies that would eventually turn into the Muslim societies in the Middle East. So Canaan's Revenge is the spreading far and wide of the Anti-Jewish bias into all the places where the ancient enemies of the Jews: the Hydraulic Pagans such as the Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, Medo-Persians, and Canaanite/Phoenicians traveled. And all the civilizations they seeded. "Canaan's Revenge" is a more broad and at the same time more specific term than "Anti-Semitism" because how can you be an Anti-Semite if you yourself happen to BE a semite such as an Arab for example? But Canaan's Revenge nails it down to a historical reason. Basically, to sum it up in a nutshell, "They hated the Jews for their freedoms." And this eventually got mutated and metastasized over the years into "The Jews did this" and "the Jews did that" and many forgot the original reason. It's a thought virus that has been transferred through the ages and has mutated and adapted to the times like a bad piece of RNA that develops resistance. A perfect example of this mutation and resistance is the "Khazar Theory." Originally adapted, supposedly, by Arthur Koestler to deracialize Judaism and thus debunk the "Jews as a race" ideology of the Nazis, it began to be adapted by and used FOR Canaan's Revenge when people used it to delegitimize Israel's existence as a state. Khazar theory has been thoroughly debunked by genetic studies linking Cohenite genes in Ashkenazi Jews to an Israeli location/origin.
I disagree. I believe ideology is the most important factor. And in the area of the Tigris and Euphrates, Mesopotamia, a culture based on the idea that kings must protect the vulnerable in society flourished for 2000 years, even though they used irrigation. They had few slaves, and even the slaves had rights protected by law. That's the cradle of Judaism. Westerners understand this very poorly, because it is mostly not part of their education (though apparently they are all aware of the Code of Hammurabi, but that's as far as it goes).
Some are aware of the Persians (see below), but the Persians were building on both Iranian Zoroastrianism and Mesopotamian Semitism, as I call the ideology that began with Sargon of Akkad. It is precisely because the Persians were such good rulers that they were so interested in assisting the spread of Judaism in ancient times.
Interesting...I will definitely be looking forward to your dissection of this. I have to ask though: what about all those Scriptures in Psalms and Proverbs and the Prophets about the pride and arrogance of the other nations surrounding Israel? Like "Pride will be their necklace?" What about the scriptures about the oppression of the poor by the rich? And about the evil practices of the Hittites, Babylonians, Assyrians, etc? What about Molech and Baal, and the high places and ashtoreths, condemning the idolatry of those neighbors? Could it be that these nations started out good and more fair and just, but then became corrupted later on?
You had said "ideology is the most important factor" in your disagreement. But, above, I discussed the difference between Judaism and the other nations in Mesopotamia as a difference in ideology, framing it as One Godship displacing God-Kingship. And I had said that that difference in ideology must have posed a threat to that ancient system so as to engender this resistance to the rise of Judaism. I had said that the hydraulic economy was the platform on which civilization arose. Very often, what starts out as an innovation to improve society (hydraulic farming and waterworks), gets corrupted later on as oligarchies begin to accumulate power. Similarly, in Britain, there was a good culture of Individualism and liberties and rights as outlined in the Magna Carta and in forward thinkers like Shakespeare and Jonathan Swift. But by the time of "the Madness of King George" the United States felt the need to rebel and declare independence because the British Empire had degenerated as a society and culture due to the influence of the Venetian-derived British East India Company. Of course, like Ancient Israel in the time of "the Sins of Jeroboam," the United States fell into its OWN idolatry and backsliding in the form of Slavery in the South. Not to mention our own version of the "High Places and Altars and Monuments to Idolatry" in the form of Southern "genteel plantation mansions" and monuments to Jefferson Davis, pedestalizing the so-called "genteel" European Aristocrat in the form of the Plantation Owner who doesn't produce anything but revels in the glory of prestige and standing, while all his slaves produce for him. That's OUR "Sins of Jeroboam."
Could it be true in ancient West Asia too? I mean, you had Urukagina and his reforms in ancient Sumeria. And you did mention Hammurabi.
But why did Abraham feel the need to leave? Why did Israel feel the need to "come out from them and become separate?" It seems to me that what started out as a good system in these places became corrupted later on and degenerated, based on what the Old Testament portrays. I dunno...I am looking forward to your discussion on this. If you could address the question of why Israel and Abraham had to break away, that would be great!
Excellent & thank you. I understand 'Hydraulic Farming" & "Climate Farming" But as I read it "Hydraulic Paganism" is a metaphor? as in "Paganism Farming" ? also, I had always thought that Persians were actually NOT as hostile to Jews as Egyptians? post deleting Babylonians & releasing The Jews out of bondage & permission to rebuild the temples( Book of Ezra ) .
Actually, you're right. About the Persians. I stand corrected. Sorry. Oops, LOL
Yes, "Hydraulic Paganism" here is meant to mean Polytheism within a context of Hydraulic Farming within an arid area, and employing vast teams of laborers within a centralized State. So...Greek gods, Babylonian Gods, etc etc. As opposed to the kind of "paganism" popularized by today's neo-pagans reacting against Christianity in the West, like Celtic, fairy folk paganism, Nordic nature paganism, Wicca, African Shamanism Voodoo within a rainforest, small scale type societies. Paganism that is more organized, big, state-like. MesoAmerica is also a good example, like the Aztecs, Olmecs, Mayans, etc. As opposed to the kind of fairy folk small scale of some Indian society up in the woods in Montana or something.
Wittfogel uses the term "Hydraulic Civilization" which he uses interchangeably with "Oriental Despotism" but includes ancient Rome as "Oriental." But Rome and Greece and Babylon worshiped multiple dieties and had God-Kings, so I just borrowed "Hydraulic" from him and attached it to "Paganism" to distinguish it from, say, some more egalitarian, matriarchal, hunting and gathering or small scale rainfall agriculture type paganism like what is being promoted in most counterculture, "Anarchist" and hippie subcultures today
That being said, though, there is also an element of Anti-Semitism seeping into Anarchist, Hippie Celtic Paganism today too. I mean, remember Nietszchie: Good and Bad as in Good Taste and Bad Taste, as opposed to Good and Evil in the geneology of morals, and his veneration of the Aristocrat elite ubermensch, and combined with Wagner, and the Nordic Thule Society, and Vril British elites and Nazi elites in Germany, and the combination of Eugenics into Nature Worship...and moving on down to today with the Odinism of neo nazi white supremacist groups today, the use of runes, etc. Some of that stuff is even being combined with Native American stuff and pro-Black stuff too. Like Black Hebrew Israelites, Black Hotep Egyptologists, and so on. Also being combined with alternative, hippie, anarchist stuff where Leftist meets Far Rightist in some bizarre Horseshoe Theory where they stick up for anybody they consider "underdog" and use the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to say that Jews are not the underdog but somehow "the Controllers." So even fairy folk paganism today is being perverted and twisted.
It takes two to tango... so goes the saying. If one side does not wish to, there is no dancing possible. Obviously Gray, like so many on the left, defends arguments detached from reality and being safely isolated from the consequences of her moral stand. Were she an Israeli living in Israel, surrounded by enemies who want to blow the country to smithereens, in constant fear and dread, maybe her stance would be different. Hamas carries the moral burden of having started, knowingly, something with lethal consequences for its people.
In this case, "one side does not wish to" engage in war: the Israelis. You are correct: this is all happening because the Hamas terrorists insist in killing Israeli civilians. But then this tango is happening because one party--not both--wants it. Israel has been forced to this tango, because it has a moral obligation to its own citizens.
I can only wish I could be as articulate as Gil-White is. Gray's argument, a common one, is simple-minded, not informed, and self righteous, imo. Thank you, for the analysis on the debate. It continues to be unsettling to hear friends say their minds are made up without knowing the history or using critical thinking. We need strong minds like this right now as it seems like part of the psyop battle depends on whole groups of people being dumbed down and exploited to make some kind of social vote.
Great article, very direct and clear analysis on the issue of moral equivalence , which by its definition derives from the fantasy world created by the half of the woke movement.. the reality is much qruder and complicated for superficial assumptions especially coming from a room in some western country detached from the events they assume to cover.. indeed we can talk about how this contradicting facts help to promote some agenda.. so what Is that those woke movement suggest to bring upon our society?
Haha, good question.
There is a "General" Indoctrination by default to "Dislike" Jews Globally for decades, hundreds or more livelily, thousands of years. I was born in Iran ( in a Bahai Family ) & have been out of Iran since 1975 ( Christian since 2009 ) I remember even before the revolution in Iran ( which was still a muslim country but much better than now ) Christians & Jews ( though lived peacefully in Iran ) were considered "Unclean". I think Regardless of which country, there is an underlying low Res but "Consistent" brainwashing to dislike Jews. it Must be Biblical. It must be going back to the old testament. Any thoughts?
Yes, I have created a name for it: "Canaan's Revenge." People are under the impression that Anti-Semitism originated with the "The Jews Killed Christ" narrative (they didn't; Rome did.). But I assert that it predates this. That it goes back to the fact that Jews and Judaism and Israel/Israelites/Hebrews...the original people of Abraham, became the antidote to what I call "Hydraulic Paganism."
What's that?
Hydraulic Civilization results from the fact that you need a large number of conscripted laborers, called "Corvee" laborers, to dig waterworks and dams and irrigation in order to have agriculture, due to the fact that you have an arid climate but with a large body of water nearby that can be tapped into. Such as: The Nile, the Euphrates, the Mekong, etc. As opposed to "Rainfall Farming" like in northern Europe where rainfall is abundant enough year round to keep a small landholding productive without the need for large waterworks and state organization. Producing a culture of Individualism. This was discussed in Wittfogel's book "Oriental Despotism." Not so in the arid, "hydraulic climate." But what Hydraulic Agriculture also results in is in the need for an elaborate astrological and astronomical prediction mechanism to determine when the Nile and Euphrates, etc would swell and flood, and when droughts would occur. Thus arises predictions and astrology. With this comes a priesthood who hoards this knowledge, and gets corrupted in the process. It also results in the amalgamation of power into the hands of a few individuals, like a Pharaoh, who employ large numbers of slaves and workers to build monuments to said Pharaoh. With these Pagan cults accumulating power in the civilization, and Polytheism, the worship of multiple gods and goddesses also allows for Kings to become Gods. Hence, the Pharaoh, Caesar, etc was often worshiped as a God. Also in Babylon too. And Phoenicians and Canaanites. These societies become oppressive, arbitrary, and corrupt.
Enter Abraham, Moses, and the Hebrews. In their system, there can only be one God only, and this god an abstract, unseeable god who is in all and through all. Thus, no King or no human can also be God, because "thou shall have no gods before me." This then results in greater equality and more objective standards, because now, no Human is better than any other Human. Jews became the first Monotheistic State, organized around a Republican ideal of protecting the sanctity of an individual, who is endowed by their Creator as having equal rights. Thus, Jews became the first Liberals, setting the path toward Modernity and the standards and freedoms and comforts we enjoy today.
Well the old system of Hydraulic Paganism, which elevates God Kings and Pharoahs and elites above the general population, and venerates them, and worships them, simply for what they are born as rather than what they do ("by the color of their skin or dna rather than the content of their character.")...These old systems are NOT going to give way to some new system upending them, you see. It's all in the Old Testament, where Psalms and Proverbs decry the pride and arrogance and oppression of the Pagan nations. Babies can be taken at will, arbitrarily, and dashed to the rocks and burned in sacrifice to Baal and Molech.
Jews become a threat to an old order: the order of Hydraulic Paganism, King-worship. What Ayn Rand called "Monument Builders" --people who employ slaves to build monuments to unearned glory. Jews, with their Objective Standard of Law, One-Godship, and jurisprudence, became a threat to this system. In fact, they upended it in the Levant in the time of David.
These Canaanite/Phoenicians, however, they were also merchants and known for sea traveling, and went far and wide, giving Greece its alphabet and some of its gods. As well as seeding Rome, as well as many societies that would eventually turn into the Muslim societies in the Middle East. So Canaan's Revenge is the spreading far and wide of the Anti-Jewish bias into all the places where the ancient enemies of the Jews: the Hydraulic Pagans such as the Babylonians, Hittites, Egyptians, Medo-Persians, and Canaanite/Phoenicians traveled. And all the civilizations they seeded. "Canaan's Revenge" is a more broad and at the same time more specific term than "Anti-Semitism" because how can you be an Anti-Semite if you yourself happen to BE a semite such as an Arab for example? But Canaan's Revenge nails it down to a historical reason. Basically, to sum it up in a nutshell, "They hated the Jews for their freedoms." And this eventually got mutated and metastasized over the years into "The Jews did this" and "the Jews did that" and many forgot the original reason. It's a thought virus that has been transferred through the ages and has mutated and adapted to the times like a bad piece of RNA that develops resistance. A perfect example of this mutation and resistance is the "Khazar Theory." Originally adapted, supposedly, by Arthur Koestler to deracialize Judaism and thus debunk the "Jews as a race" ideology of the Nazis, it began to be adapted by and used FOR Canaan's Revenge when people used it to delegitimize Israel's existence as a state. Khazar theory has been thoroughly debunked by genetic studies linking Cohenite genes in Ashkenazi Jews to an Israeli location/origin.
I disagree. I believe ideology is the most important factor. And in the area of the Tigris and Euphrates, Mesopotamia, a culture based on the idea that kings must protect the vulnerable in society flourished for 2000 years, even though they used irrigation. They had few slaves, and even the slaves had rights protected by law. That's the cradle of Judaism. Westerners understand this very poorly, because it is mostly not part of their education (though apparently they are all aware of the Code of Hammurabi, but that's as far as it goes).
Some are aware of the Persians (see below), but the Persians were building on both Iranian Zoroastrianism and Mesopotamian Semitism, as I call the ideology that began with Sargon of Akkad. It is precisely because the Persians were such good rulers that they were so interested in assisting the spread of Judaism in ancient times.
I will soon publish about this. Stay tuned.
Interesting...I will definitely be looking forward to your dissection of this. I have to ask though: what about all those Scriptures in Psalms and Proverbs and the Prophets about the pride and arrogance of the other nations surrounding Israel? Like "Pride will be their necklace?" What about the scriptures about the oppression of the poor by the rich? And about the evil practices of the Hittites, Babylonians, Assyrians, etc? What about Molech and Baal, and the high places and ashtoreths, condemning the idolatry of those neighbors? Could it be that these nations started out good and more fair and just, but then became corrupted later on?
You had said "ideology is the most important factor" in your disagreement. But, above, I discussed the difference between Judaism and the other nations in Mesopotamia as a difference in ideology, framing it as One Godship displacing God-Kingship. And I had said that that difference in ideology must have posed a threat to that ancient system so as to engender this resistance to the rise of Judaism. I had said that the hydraulic economy was the platform on which civilization arose. Very often, what starts out as an innovation to improve society (hydraulic farming and waterworks), gets corrupted later on as oligarchies begin to accumulate power. Similarly, in Britain, there was a good culture of Individualism and liberties and rights as outlined in the Magna Carta and in forward thinkers like Shakespeare and Jonathan Swift. But by the time of "the Madness of King George" the United States felt the need to rebel and declare independence because the British Empire had degenerated as a society and culture due to the influence of the Venetian-derived British East India Company. Of course, like Ancient Israel in the time of "the Sins of Jeroboam," the United States fell into its OWN idolatry and backsliding in the form of Slavery in the South. Not to mention our own version of the "High Places and Altars and Monuments to Idolatry" in the form of Southern "genteel plantation mansions" and monuments to Jefferson Davis, pedestalizing the so-called "genteel" European Aristocrat in the form of the Plantation Owner who doesn't produce anything but revels in the glory of prestige and standing, while all his slaves produce for him. That's OUR "Sins of Jeroboam."
Could it be true in ancient West Asia too? I mean, you had Urukagina and his reforms in ancient Sumeria. And you did mention Hammurabi.
But why did Abraham feel the need to leave? Why did Israel feel the need to "come out from them and become separate?" It seems to me that what started out as a good system in these places became corrupted later on and degenerated, based on what the Old Testament portrays. I dunno...I am looking forward to your discussion on this. If you could address the question of why Israel and Abraham had to break away, that would be great!
Excellent & thank you. I understand 'Hydraulic Farming" & "Climate Farming" But as I read it "Hydraulic Paganism" is a metaphor? as in "Paganism Farming" ? also, I had always thought that Persians were actually NOT as hostile to Jews as Egyptians? post deleting Babylonians & releasing The Jews out of bondage & permission to rebuild the temples( Book of Ezra ) .
Actually, you're right. About the Persians. I stand corrected. Sorry. Oops, LOL
Yes, "Hydraulic Paganism" here is meant to mean Polytheism within a context of Hydraulic Farming within an arid area, and employing vast teams of laborers within a centralized State. So...Greek gods, Babylonian Gods, etc etc. As opposed to the kind of "paganism" popularized by today's neo-pagans reacting against Christianity in the West, like Celtic, fairy folk paganism, Nordic nature paganism, Wicca, African Shamanism Voodoo within a rainforest, small scale type societies. Paganism that is more organized, big, state-like. MesoAmerica is also a good example, like the Aztecs, Olmecs, Mayans, etc. As opposed to the kind of fairy folk small scale of some Indian society up in the woods in Montana or something.
Wittfogel uses the term "Hydraulic Civilization" which he uses interchangeably with "Oriental Despotism" but includes ancient Rome as "Oriental." But Rome and Greece and Babylon worshiped multiple dieties and had God-Kings, so I just borrowed "Hydraulic" from him and attached it to "Paganism" to distinguish it from, say, some more egalitarian, matriarchal, hunting and gathering or small scale rainfall agriculture type paganism like what is being promoted in most counterculture, "Anarchist" and hippie subcultures today
That being said, though, there is also an element of Anti-Semitism seeping into Anarchist, Hippie Celtic Paganism today too. I mean, remember Nietszchie: Good and Bad as in Good Taste and Bad Taste, as opposed to Good and Evil in the geneology of morals, and his veneration of the Aristocrat elite ubermensch, and combined with Wagner, and the Nordic Thule Society, and Vril British elites and Nazi elites in Germany, and the combination of Eugenics into Nature Worship...and moving on down to today with the Odinism of neo nazi white supremacist groups today, the use of runes, etc. Some of that stuff is even being combined with Native American stuff and pro-Black stuff too. Like Black Hebrew Israelites, Black Hotep Egyptologists, and so on. Also being combined with alternative, hippie, anarchist stuff where Leftist meets Far Rightist in some bizarre Horseshoe Theory where they stick up for anybody they consider "underdog" and use the Protocols of the Elders of Zion to say that Jews are not the underdog but somehow "the Controllers." So even fairy folk paganism today is being perverted and twisted.
It takes two to tango... so goes the saying. If one side does not wish to, there is no dancing possible. Obviously Gray, like so many on the left, defends arguments detached from reality and being safely isolated from the consequences of her moral stand. Were she an Israeli living in Israel, surrounded by enemies who want to blow the country to smithereens, in constant fear and dread, maybe her stance would be different. Hamas carries the moral burden of having started, knowingly, something with lethal consequences for its people.
Actually, the saying "it takes two to tango," in my view, is not appropriate to the thrust of your comment. For that saying has the following meaning:
"Some things need the active cooperation of two parties; blame is to be laid on both parties in a conflict."
https://www.wordnik.com/words/it%20takes%20two%20to%20tango
In this case, "one side does not wish to" engage in war: the Israelis. You are correct: this is all happening because the Hamas terrorists insist in killing Israeli civilians. But then this tango is happening because one party--not both--wants it. Israel has been forced to this tango, because it has a moral obligation to its own citizens.